Обсуждение

Also that the average voter is very dumb and does not have anything approaching a coherent ideology.

I agree. The hard part is that the Venn diagram of these overlaps and the size of the middle is … hard to discern. How much energy is used trying to convert is the issue. If you can get a two for one (messaging for recruitment with side effects of conversion) cheaply enough then it makes sense.

The awful thing is that the ones who feel this way are not quiet about it. They are entirely pleased that they can say the evil things out loud, now. They had waited for this and they won't let it go. What that means, though, is that the rest of us can see it, and evil perceived can be defeated.

They say they care now because he’s hurting them, they were happy to vote for him when he was hurting other people and if he promised to “own the libs” they would probably still vote for him again if they had the chance.

Yeah and there are tens of millions in both categories. It's a big country.

Politics and so much more. Similarly, in any conflict there are people you can negotiate with - and people you just have to defeat.

Karl Popper had good insight into this IMO

Based on talking to students I don‘t think it was a myth. I have never seen such an array of wild misinformation around an election and they are not even conservative. They believed wacko stuff. And such a variety. I don’t think many voted for Trump but they believed it and some likely didn‘t vote.

I grew up in a state where 3/5 adults voted Trump. These people are all in. They at core have the most horrific beliefs you can imagine.

It’s true but extremely depressing

It’s good to keep in mind that Fascists always have Clergy somewhere in attendance.

4 categories made from 2 earlier process of Love and Strife that Empedocles guy of the 4 elements, before Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle

As long as it didn't apply to themselves. That's the point.

Also, people have agency. We often don't acknowledge that in these conversations.

"They" must make the journey to light themselves. No help. No encouragement. No "off ramp."

Obama’s PodSave speechwriting team fall for this perpetually. Not surprising I guess since they literally did communications for the President, but a platform that large overestimating the efficacy of messaging all the time might be doing more harm than good. Idk

Yes, tens of millions did... but they are still the minority. The vast majority of Americans want equity and justice for all people.

I come from the position of always respecting the intelligence of the voter. That doesn't mean that I respect what they want, but I understand that they wanted it.

The Republican party makes no illusions about wielding state power to crush their political opponents (Academia, LGBT+, immigrants, low income minority groups, etc). Imagine if the Democrats spent 4 years destroying car dealership owners, finance bros, fossil fuel execs and RW evangelicals

Trump voters are unreachable. Democrats have to learn that they simply have to steamroller them; those voters are never going to wise up, express regret for their awful choices, or be open to rational argument. They're Jim Jones followers who've drunk the Kool-Aid, and there's no antidote.

The entire cowardly centrist perspective in the US has to die utterly. People who benefit from a problem don't want it to be solved. The only time they will negotiate is if they have already lost, and negotiating then means keeping the problem instead of getting rid of it to save their feelings.

The reality is much of the US population are truly horrible people. They showed it with slavery, with the confederacy, with the genocide against indigenous populations. A vast chunk of the US population has been consistently inhumane, cruel, racist and evil.

I guess this is who we, the United States of America, are. That’s tragic,

...burn their crops and sow their fields with salt.

In this vein, I often find myself looking at politics and screaming “I don’t want to compromise with those people or bring them into the tent, I want to destroy them. I don’t want to live in a society where that type of person exists” because I think far too many people with power fear a real fight.

Many people bought into his lies because they are fox brainwashed rubes. Many are just shitty people who are still mad they lost the civil War.

Nonsense. We lost because Dems turned their back on rural areas. Schumer once said Dems could win by replacing rural voters with urban voters, the party walked away from rural areas. Now, we're running Dems everywhere, and we're starting to win. It takes time.

bsky.app/profile/prot...

“You were fooled and you’re not the only one” is a permission structure to leave it all behind, not a universal statement of reality. It is factual for many low-info voters, and it is a useful lie that other disillusioned Trump voters can tell themselves. Get them on side then keep working them.

"You are not going to convince everyone" should be basic organizing strategy.

"Tell us lies, tell us sweet lies" super duped dupers.

When advising campaigns, we work with a five-point voter scale: -2 / -1 / 0 / +1 / +2 Successful candidates focus on one point shifts in the center and generally ignore the true believers (+2) and true haters (-2) in favor of moving the middle. If candidates won't internalize that, they fail.

its a good all round life lesson, some people are not worth your time, dont waste time on them

No doubt there's a basket of deplorables to simply defeat. Also people who voted for the Apprentice guy to fix inflation and even more who followed a global trend of throwing out the party in charge during the pandemic.

Once a MAGAt - forever a traitor.

or beat them into submission

I no longer have the Slightest interest in hearing the “I talked to Trump supporters …” type of reporting. Idgaf what Trump supports have to say, I just want to land an electoral pile driver on them and get on with my life.

Most Dem congresspeople ran on MORE COPS , BORDER CONTROL and immigration crack down last election and got elected--these are NOT Dem values, these folks are Dems in name only--it is infuriating

"well they vote so we have to give into them a little" - no, make them pariahs and make the greater public energized to get out and vote against them.

Much easier to pretend that there isn’t a 30% baseline of voters who themselves are hot garbage, instead of being direct and telling them to their faces. They might donate money to a centrist Dem campaign if you pretend to like them and care about their views.

There are duped voters who are reachable by "better messaging." Others are reachable by showing them they got duped and helping them learn how not to do it again. And other variations that don't fit neatly into social media posts, which is why simplicity-chasing consultants don't talk about them.

It's ridiculous how many people involved with liberal politics do not understand that basic truth.

the democrats insistence that hardcore republicans are more persuadable than leftists is pretty funny

Yep defeat or deactivate as in they say everything sucks fuck it im not voting. Which is part of the point of successful negative ads.

I agree! This Clinton move to the center strategy isn’t going to convert die hard republicans, but a clear, robust, exciting platform will motivate the base and maybe some non voters.

I wish people talked more about the fact that anyone who has paid attention to politics for a while realizes almost every campaign is largely BS that never happens. So who cares etc. Trump is the rare person who has made things happen and that’s shocking lots of people into action and giving AF.

Also, the people who insist that the ‘24 election could not have been won need to be kept far away from the ‘28 election decisions. If you can’t admit that mistakes were made then I don’t trust you to do a better job next time.

40% of voters went for Hoover in 1932. Just defeat those losers.

These were the reasons Trump was twice elected. It was never to reduce the price of eggs

one thing i've been on before in that even in terms of working to get people on your side, the political approach that has been taken is frequently more or less "we hear you, we see you, you are valid" and literally everyone hates this and finds it condescending

I've only met a couple that I feel were duped, but even them I am more angry than forgiving. One was a Mexican-American truck driver, the kind ICE would assume was not a citizen. Voted for DJT because long haul trucking had so many problems and he believed DJT's promise to fix/protect truckers.