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Klein asks Allen what liberals should prioritize if they win the trifecta in 2028. Allen suggests the following: 1) Putting an end to Citizens United; 2) Creation of national service; 3) Ending gerrymandering

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Allen asks an interesting question: is there a supermajority coalition that could fight illiberalism that could include both libertarians and the American Federation of Teachers?

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21 прямых ответов · 149 сообщений

Показаны не все ответы

Публичный счётчик показывает 22, а источник передал 21. Остальные ответы могли быть удалены, скрыты или не выданы публично.

You are such a silly clown

Ответ для Plover Oatt

Like it's an idiotic thing for her to say but that makes you even stupider for being credulous about it

Short answer: no. Long answer: lmao, fuck no, are you stupid or something?

Ответ для FakeKraid

libertarianism is just a fascist psy-op, it's not a real ideology that anyone actually believes

Ответ для FakeKraid

a libertarian is just a fascist who is trying to fool others into thinking they aren't one, or in denial and trying to fool themselves

A

No

Libertarians only care about things that directly care about them. They don't even care if affects their community.

jesus christ

Have you seen an actual organized libertarian group looks like these days? Check out the New Hampshire dudes and get back to me.

No because most libertarians can't come near schools

Ответ для All Cattes Are Best Cattes

Exactly most libertarians are just conservatives who are even more pro-pedo and racist than your average "Trump is my 2nd coming of Hitler and pedophile god" MAGAt.

short answer: no long answer: nope

Not like that it sure as hell won’t

Ответ для vagine de poitrine

Anyway the way to get both of those groups on the same side is to just go all-in on fighting 1.Trump and 2. Glonzo

The number of libertarians who aren’t full of shit is vanishingly small.

Ответ для Hare 🍉

I’ve pondered how many never left adolescence. Some, surprisingly idealistic. Others, incredibly immature and egocentric.

Ответ для jnowak

Having kids and getting my real world job snapped me out of it "Wait a minute, none of this holds up"

Ответ для jnowak

Libertarianism is forgivable in a teenager, but no older.

Sometimes he can figure out the problem, but the solution he offers is always bizzarly wrong. Klein has nothing to offer at all.

all the libertarians i know think schools are a waste of money

Personal experience: we have a "taxation is theft!" libertarian in the family. The six closest relatives to that family member are all teachers, postal workers, military, and a nurse. Over the past 10 years that family member has always found a rationalization on social media to support Trump.

Ответ для Ford

Sadly, not only did the Libertarian Party's brains get broken by 9/11, but the Mises Institute racist right-wingers moved in and took over, even to the extent of opposing open immigration, and much of the party leadership is now Trumpers, who are about 98% opposite to Libertarianism.

Ответ для Bill Stewart

Ya most "libertarians" are just even more racist conservatives. Which given that conservatives are modern day Nazis isn't promising.

Ответ для Bill Stewart

I always go to Obama winning twice as the brain breaker.

Ответ для Ford

The Koch Bros astroturfing a Tea Party that included people who opposed debt and the hater crowd didn't help either, given their influence on the party, but you may be right.

Ответ для Ford

I used to be very libertarian. My only political donation is to Rand Paul for his 2010 primary campaign. I haven't voted for a Republican for federal office since 2016. Environmental issues, the Ukraine war, and the dysfunctional healthcare system had a big effect on my political views.

Ответ для Ford

Family member was a Penn Jillette fan but I haven’t seen much about him recently. Maybe he changed?. Family member now supports Russel Brand on social media frm time to time & LOVED the martial arts instructor Facebook post explaining how the Trump/Vance Zelensky ambush was genius move.

Klein argues that Democrats has been too attached to its particular coalition rather than a grander vision.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

We're now a a period where Allen and Klein are kinda talking past each other. Allen is talking about liberalism as a political theory, a la Locke; Klein is talking about liberalism as strictly a left-of-center Democratic party phenomenon. Glad that only took a half-hour to sort out.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein argues that a proceduralist platform is insufficient to create a broad-based coalition. He wants a "thicker vision" of liberalism that enables more individual freedom. "Freedom as a capacity for self-mastery."

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

He’s about to *almost* back himself into a Zuboffian understanding of instrumentation power, isn’t he

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

*instrumentarian. Gah.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein argues that a liberal arts education has to be about not just preparing folks for jobs but providing guidance for how to live a freer life.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Allen: Americans have walked away from the task of self-government.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein: Institutions are means not ends, and we should talk about them as means while providing aspirational ends. Allen: 💯

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

So, they don't really address any of the main problems that need to be solved with policy in the US outside of elections? Seems kind of vapid.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

That is the entirety of what you’re going to get out of this. There can be no substance.

Ответ для Haydon

I'm not surprised at all but Klein, as he's been getting worse every year, it seems. Not familiar with Allen, but given a glance at her career, I'd hope she would have more to say.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

The effete center-left liberal (speaking as a self-identified Lincoln/FDR/Johnson liberal) "commentators" are basically like political birdwatchers. It's infuriating to listen to their nonchalance and aloofness.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

She has things to say. Are those things useful? Much less clear. She's not evil, but she is possibly the most overrated person I've ever come across.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

On brand

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

A big thing with Klein, is that we’ve clung to an illiberal form of politics in the classical sense. IE we suppress speech and ideas instead of standing up and debating the merits. It’s partly true and mostly just lazily pointing at woke.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖
T

The critique itself is vapid. There’s nothing inherently institutionalist about liberalism. It’s a means to an end just as they say and they would be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks institutions are a goal in themselves. So they critique it as a tactic without offering a replacement.

Ответ для Matthew 🦖

Ezra Klein is the most overrated person on the center left in existence. Back in 2010, I was harassing him online when he said that Social Security needed to be cut.

Ответ для Barbara Rice fka Fabucat1958

He’s wrote he supports uncapping the taxes to fix it, but is willing to consider some means testing for other tax increases to fund it as well.

Ответ для 3500° Color Temperature

In other words, scrap the cap, but only if every other way to keep from making the rich pay their fair share fails. Grrrr

Ответ для Barbara Rice fka Fabucat1958

THANK you

Ответ для Barbara Rice fka Fabucat1958

to be fair, there's very little *left* there.

Ответ для pacanukeha❌
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

And just like that abundance nonsense absolutely no consideration of the lawlessness of GOP and the power of the RW media

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

A big abstract, this. The fact that the entire post-Obama leadership of the Democratic Party came from the generation before Obama’s own — it stayed that way for years — would appear to say something about the nature of Obama’s leadership, more than about the party’s “capture by institutionalists.”

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Heather Cox Richardson- will discuss with Ezra Klein!

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Hey Daniel, do me & the rest of us a favor? Plz tell Ezra Klein that anyone who doesn’t have their own head fully lodged up either their own arse or the arse of some postliberal tech fascist hopes he fucks off to Fuck Off Mtn ASAP. & once he gets there, dream the impossible dream & keep fucking off

Ответ для Arc de Temu (derogatory)

Actually please tell him to swim in gasoline and dry off by the campfire.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

These guys sound dumb as rocks!!!

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Fine, then let's institutionalize Ezra Klein.

Ответ для PlayerX
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

I’m not sure what Klein means when he says “more freedom” should be the goal. The US is arguably the freest country in the world in a bad way. In Scandinavia, the individual is not king, the common good is. The cultural difference is why the progressive agenda is such an uphill battle.

Ответ для Mrs. Wilberforce

Our level of gun ownership alone makes it clear that the US is the world capital of anti-socialism.

Ответ для Mrs. Wilberforce
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

pretty funny considering both of these guys are basically institutions

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

@skyview.social unroll please

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

classique two dumb bitches telling each other exactlyyy situation

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
J

#SoPathetic "liberals should prioritize... 1) end Citizens United; 2) Creation of national service; 3) end gerrymandering." Why "prioritize" bare minimums? Better: end plutocracy; start #Medicare4All; launch #JobGuarantee leading to full #GreenNewDeal to save US and world. www.jobguarantee.org

The Job Guarantee ProgramThere are never enough jobs at any given time in any corner of the world. We can create them This is the job guarantee.jobguarantee.org
Ответ для janusdaniels

Oh this would be great. We have so many idle people that could be participating. So many advantages. How do we make this happen?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

wowwwwww and they got paid how much for this?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

This guy is a goddamn sophist

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

is *ABUNDANCE* now just an afterthought? ezra, we hardly knew ye...

Ответ для ladiaz

the book sold as much as it was going to so now it's on to the next thing

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
J

Please reply to this: bsky.app/profile/janu...

janusdaniels

#SoPathetic "liberals should prioritize... 1) end Citizens United; 2) Creation of national service; 3) end gerrymandering." Why "prioritize" bare minimums? Better: end plutocracy; start #Medicare4All; launch #JobGuarantee leading to full #GreenNewDeal to save US and world. www.jobguarantee.org

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

lmao yes blame the voters 👍

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Needed to get Bill Kristol on the stage to answer that one I guess.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

A liberal arts education is not about preparing folks for jobs. It’s about educating people, and providing a strong foundation and the ability to learn and think critically.

Ответ для Call Me Cassandra

🎯

Ответ для Call Me Cassandra

Yet such an education *does* prepare people for useful work.

Ответ для Alex Merz 🇺🇸🇨🇦🇺🇦

Yes, a good education does tend to result in people who are prepared for the workplace, but it’s because they’ve got a good foundation and have become adept at learning and thinking, not because their education was job training.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

OK but like …….. how is that the fault of liberal arts programs/professors??? Would any of them disagree with this?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Duh, asshole. How is that news.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Does he want society to engineer success for him? Is there a word for that?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

A broad-based coalition *with fascists* is not a good recipe.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

I guess that debating the vision of human flourishing that must underlie a political program of liberalism is fun, but shouldn't we focus on building the popular front to defeat fascism? I'm just not sure that "Freedom as a capacity for self-mastery" is the slogan we need for our Color Revolution.

Ответ для Social Scientist (Mostly) in Exile

And I’d hardly place creating a national service anywhere in the top priorities at the moment. These people are not only grossly out of touch with the electorate, but they also seem utterly oblivious to the state of emergency we’re in.

Ответ для Call Me Cassandra

Ezra Klein is in bed with Marc Andressen. He does not see fascism as an emergency because so long as he acts as a propagandist for capitalism, he thinks he'll be okay.

Ответ для Big Von Grater

I'm not done with the main thread, but so far all I see of the summary of this 'debate' (hug fest) is the usual abstractions of freedom (to do what?) and self-governance (for who?). They'll go mask off when their class status gets more and more tenuous.

Ответ для Big Von Grater

I did not realize that, but does that explain some things. I hate this timeline.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

This is his (not very) artful way of saying don’t stick up for trans people. More freedom! Including to “self-master,” which implies a need to limit exercises of individual freedom but also discomfort at the thought of imposing such limits. This leads to a need to cut those unwilling to self-master.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Forced servitude, e.g., national service is an anathema to any idea of individual freedom.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Channeling Bill Bennett?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

This is some "promote synergy"-level meaningless language.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Did he ever say what he wants to do that the government currently prevents him from doing? What "freedom" is he pining for?

Ответ для Joshua Sharp

My question exactly. He’s Ezra fucking Klein of the Times. What freedoms do he and his friends and family not have? That life is as good as it gets on the planet.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

As someone who attended a very capital-L libertarian university, this specific wording sets off all kinds of alarms

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

THAT's Klein! Everything abt Klein is proceduralist. Klein wants liberals to align w/ libertarians! Libertarians & their billionaire donors, want to escape from our democratic experiment. Ezra's fetish with libertarians is just nuts.

Ответ для Greg Wilson

Ezra doesn’t understand politics.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Personally, my answer to that is No. No, we do not need to build coalition with Libertarians. The "taxes are theft" crowd is delusional & selfish. The Democratic party needs a coalition with the Left, the tax the billionaires more crowd.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

"Freedom as a capacity for self-mastery." Republicans want to torch social security and medicare and Obamacare and replace them with alternatives that are better because they have more 'freedom' in them. It's like having the 'right to work' so your employment has more freedom.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Paragraphs like this are why this is fucking doomed. Absolute nerdlinger shit. The other side is rolling coal and setting off 400,000 pounds of fireworks and we're listening to Ezra Fucking Klein talk about broad based coalitions...

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

More individual freedom would seem to be at odds with the creation of a national service.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

You can always count on him to be thick.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

This reminds me of the intellectuals in Vienna in the 1930s who were focusing on the differences between communism and capitalism, overlooking the mood in the street.

Ответ для michele collins

Forget intellectuals, academics, think tanks, etc. We will never move forward until every citizen has discarded antiquated notions of private property and "individual liberty." But we can't expect them to give these up easily. It's going to require stern progressive leadership with a heavy hand.

Ответ для Dobie Rush

'with a heavy hand'. Yikes.

Ответ для michele collins

Sorry if you're squeamish. 🙄

Ответ для Dobie Rush

Threats are uncool.

Ответ для michele collins

When a physician diagnoses an advanced cancer, then lays out a particularly brutal treatment regimen to which there is no alternative, would you say that physician is making "threats"? Sorry, but if we're going to usher in a properly progressive society, the gloves will have to come off.

Ответ для Dobie Rush

You are dangerous

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

But also it's just left-of-centre.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Don’t all PoliSci undergrads develop a shorthand to avoid this problem by the end of their freshman year?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

two self-absorbed idiots wailing about nothing

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

😂

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

God Daniel this all sounds like tedious pablum

Ответ для Daniel Drezner
A

God, Klein's actually a moron, huh.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Ezra lost me at, "Rich people told me I look hot now"

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein is a stupid pundit's idea of what a smart pundit sounds like.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

His grand vision is some looser regulations here and some government funding there.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

if only we throw a (suspiciously undefined) part of the coalition under the bus, then finally we’ll succeed, i’m sure

Ответ для POTUS Speedrun Record Holder

I mean if throwing one group under the bus doesn't work, we can always move on to throwing the next group under, amirite?

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Does he elaborate? Cause it sounds like he's complaining about minorities

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

lol and there it is, always. Abandon those in your own coalition who aren’t present and all will be right with the world. I guess that’s doing politics the right way lol This is a hideous inclination among many Democrats, to abandon our friends as soon as doing so looks politically beneficial.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

So, the "black people are holding us back" argument again.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

This means that Ezra Klein wants to throw certain members of the Democratic coalition under the bus, but doesn’t want to say who exactly

Ответ для Anti-Sabotage Operations Group

Too bad we can't ask the guy who Klein said was doing politics the right way. I'm sure he had a little list.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

I'd love to ask him who, specifically, he is suggesting we need to court and who we need to abandon in pursuit of this "grander vision". After all, Democrats already aggravate their coalition members to court their detractors, and our state of affairs suggests this has not been a fruitful endeavor.

Ответ для John

White men.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein is a pseudo intellectual moron.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Fuck Ezra Klein

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

It's really weird to blame the Democrats for not being attached to grand ideas. The Democrats want to create strong, social services and a more rational country in general. Circumstances have brought about victories for the opposite perspective. What are they supposed to do about that? It's glib.

Ответ для Martin Schneider

It's basically electoral essentialism. He's saying they haven't won enough elections. We already knew that. It's not like he's saying he knows how to win elections, he doesn't.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Fuck Klein.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein is a cunt

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Just stop paying attention to Ezra Klein.

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Ezra Klein can sod off and go to his Peter Thiel meetings

Ответ для Daniel Drezner

Klein really needs expulsion.

I have never met a libertarian who was not illiberal at their core. Not one.

Lmfao, libertarians??? Do you all actually want to DO anything? If their coalition can't DO anything what is the point? Hold on to power until they lose again?

No, Libertarians are illiberal themselves.

Libertarians shouldn’t be allowed near children

cannot fathom the levels of mediocrity require to find those two interesting