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tfw you say you're willing to work cross-party on a total reform of social care but then rule out any of the revenue-raising steps needed to pay for it. #Cakeism is clearly alive and well.

Kemi Badenoch tells PM not to raise taxes to fund social careIn a letter to the PM, the Conservative leader offers to work with him on adult social care reform.www.bbc.com
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33 прямых ответов · 106 сообщений

I heard that on R4 this am. "Yes I support it as long as its funded by magic." 🤦‍♀️

So presumably she’s in favour of richer old people having to give up some of their assets instead. Interesting.

Oh, and the idea that you're protecting people who've saved all their lives is utterly laughable. As if the current system does that!

I know why social care isn’t being fixedFinding £17,000 a month towards the care of my parents forced me to reflect on the collective delusions and political cowardice that conspire to prevent us confronting – once and for all – this huge s...www.tortoisemedia.com
Ответ для Tim Bale

Based on what Badenoch says, it seems she would work with the govt on a new system of social care, particularly agreeing on the size and cost. They could then disagree on how it should be paid for. That would be progress.

Ответ для jockhigh

It is not progress. We are all full of ideas on how to fix adult social care if we ignore how it's to be paid for. But we can't. There simply isn't the money available to sort this. New money needs to be found and if you aren't going to help with that side then you have no place at the table.

Ответ для Olddogandgrump

How much money and in what priority do we need it. All of that can be agreed before deciding and disagreeing about where the money comes from. Running around shouting "It's really a lot of money! Where will it come from?" before doing anything else is not achieving anything.

Ответ для jockhigh

It may be that Badenoch is not sincere in trying to fix social care, but she's said she is and that's an opportunity to take her at her word. If it turns out she was not serious, that will have consequences for her.

Ответ для Tim Bale

Even if it were true, the reality now is that few younger and middle-aged people are able to "save all their lives".

Ответ для Tim Bale

If you can’t pay for social care and have a house why shouldn’t it be sold? If your partner still lives there then the bill gets paid on death. If you rent and have no savings then the local authority pays.

Ответ для Winter02

Why. For starters: because that principle does not apply to health care. So why should it apply to end-of-life care? Secondly, a surviving partner may be a good deal younger. The care home cannot wait indefinitely for payment.

Ответ для Chris Rivers

It does apply to end of life nursing care. That is funded. What is doesn’t apply to is living in a care home. Why should young people who can’t afford to buy a house be paying out to give inheritances? A charge is put on the property by the local authority if you have a surviving partner.

Ответ для Winter02

‘End-of-life’: different definitions … “Most recipients of long-term social care in Britain rely not on cradle-to-grave but on ‘asset-based’ welfare – using the wealth accumulated in their working lives to pay for what they need when they get old and sick” www.tortoisemedia.com/2021/03/11/t...

I know why social care isn’t being fixedFinding £17,000 a month towards the care of my parents forced me to reflect on the collective delusions and political cowardice that conspire to prevent us confronting – once and for all – this huge s...www.tortoisemedia.com
Ответ для Winter02

There seems to be a suggestion that tax payers should, in effect, fund the inheritance.

Ответ для Winter02

It doesn’t need to be sold but things like inheritance tax could be directly linked to paying for social care. The problem quite fairly noted is why should some be financially penalised for having sunk their money into buying a house over those who did not.

Ответ для Alex J-W

For the same reason that those without children pay the same taxes as those with children. Or that we all pay for the police and fire brigade even if our houses aren't on fire. Would you feel the same about someone who, instead, acquired 5kg of gold bars?

Ответ для bayernklaus

It is thinking like this that allows Reform to flourish.

Ответ для Staffordshire Rouleur

I warn you not to be ordinary, I warn you not to be young, I warn you not to fall ill, and I warn you not to grow old. Neil Kinnock

Ответ для Winter02

Or massively increase inheritance tax and pool the risk. As the article says, it’s Russian roulette who loses their house. Pooled risk would also free up some savings from richer older people.

Ответ для Judith Fairbairn

Russian roulette is a bit of a loaded 😂 term! Getting cancer is rotten luck so you never live to enjoy your pension. Getting old and frail is sad but why should the inheritance of your family be protected ?

Ответ для Winter02

I think social care should come from inheritance. I support massively increasing inheritance tax on everyone to pay for social care.

Ответ для Judith Fairbairn

I agree. Millions of people never inherit anything anyway. It should be regarded as a lucky, unearned bonus if you do - not something to depend on.

Ответ для Winter02

I have no problem with this. What I did find unfair was that we were paying £72k a year as Mum was a dementia patient, when her care would have been free if she had had any other life limiting condition. And the fees we paid went to a private equity vampires while staff were on minimum wages.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

This is a BIG issue.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

That is my issue too. My mum had dementia and had to pay for her care even when she was totally dependent on others for everything. It is the inequality in the current system which I hate.

Ответ для Joanna

NHS continuing care funding is NOT determined by diagnosis. NHS bodies will resist to their last breath funding anyone especially dementia as it opens the floodgates My Mum had Alzheimer’s and after 2 reviews I got CHC funding for her. It can be done but I had experience thru my work.

Ответ для Gill O’Leary

I managed to get about 35% of my mothers fees back (for her middle third in her nursing home) - devastating stroke that left her totally dependant. Adult Care said "There was no evidence of brain issue" 😮 Took ages and I had a stack of papers 1 metre high as evidence. Terrible system.

Ответ для Iain Clucas

Shocking. It’s a cruel and inequitable system where every thing is stacked against the applicant. The processes are designed to wear people down so they give up

Ответ для Iain Clucas

The whole process is designed to exhaust you. Even before Mum needed to go into care, trying to find help to support her in her home, where she wanted to be and where she knew, was just an absolute nightmare. There isn't the staff or infrastructure in the system, even when you have the money to pay.

Ответ для Gill O’Leary

Spot on. We spent over 3 yrs applying and appealing. My brother was welfare rights, social care and tribunals trained. We eventually got a specialist law firm involved. They fought us tooth and nail but eventually conceded 3 days before mum died. It was harrowing but they had to backdate it 2 years.

Ответ для Gill O’Leary

It is a lottery & the odds heavily stacked against the applicant. It seems to me having been thru this several times now ìt can be imposiible to achieve qualigicahion. My father did & then he didnt (not supposed to be revoked once awarded) he didnt get any better !

Ответ для Bertha Mason

For profit companies of any form need to be removed from the social care equation.

Ответ для Uitlander

I agree. The care of children is even more of a private equity racket. They are absolutely fleecing local councils...and ultimately us.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

Private equity is a leech on the system. Same as we are paying out housing benefit to profit landlords who bought former council houses.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

My husband has Parkinson’s which affects him physically but because it came with Lewy Body Dementia the NHS won’t even consider funding his care.

Ответ для Vivienne

I'm so sorry. It's hard enough having to deal with the illnesses of a loved one as it is, let alone take on a system that goes out of its way not to support you. Sending you my very best wishes.

Ответ для Vivienne

It’s not just dementia. I knew of an old man with Parkinson’s whose family couldn’t get the NHS to fund his care at home. The family spent tens of thousands. He died in the heatwave in 2022.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

My father was completely immobile with Progressive Supranuclear Palsy for the last year of his life, but still had to fund his own care. It’s not just dementia. The NHS only decided he had medical needs three weeks before his death.

Ответ для Indikon

So sorry to hear about your Dad. It's an awful, unfair situation. The final year's should not be spent in battles with the authorities trying to get support.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

Thank you. In some ways I found it easier when my mother moved into a care home with dementia, because I already knew the NHS was only interested in making sure they didn’t have to pay, so I didn’t invest the emotional energy when they filled their part of the form with fantasies.

Ответ для Indikon

God, those damned forms. Don't remind me. They put Mum down as able to dress herself - when they interviewed her she was wearing a strappy party dress on a winter morning.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

They put my father down as “needs assistance to dress,” when he could barely move his fingers, let alone put clothes on.

Ответ для Bertha Mason

I am in Scotland so the CHC funding option doesn't apply. We did get 'free' nursing & personal care towards the fees but it was a small proportion of the actual fee. We campaignfor free care for people with advanced dementia & quality care for everyone.

Ответ для Joanna

I don't have an issue with "hotel" costs but do object to paying for what is in reality palliative care in advanced dementia. www.alzscot.org/campaign-for...

Fair Dementia CareA report highlighting the inequalities people living with dementia face, in terms of accessing health care, and recommendations for reform.www.alzscot.org
Ответ для Winter02

The only comment I would add, where is the money going. If your expecting inheritance to go to pay the state to provide care fine, if your expecting it to be paid to private firms and offshored to the BVI that is slightly different.

Ответ для Máirtín Ó Loċlainn

Care homes charge in many cases £2k a week.. and pay staff an absolute pittance.. Then claim they're losing money Something doesn't add up

Ответ для Oppo

Which underpins my point. I don’t doubt some are struggling but simply expecting more money to be siphoned to the private sector is not going to sell well. how much state money is siphoned to private landlords in the form of housing benefit as another example.

Ответ для Oppo

My Mum's charges £1500 a week. Full board 7 nights a week with free entertainment laid on, and caring staff 24x7 - seems pretty good value really. Many residents, including my mother, need multiple interventions every night. Then there is management of often complex individual medication etc...

Ответ для Radiohead319 💙

Not sure I agree. As an individual, perhaps But theres 30 such patients, all paying the same for the same staff ..

Ответ для Oppo

My partner currently works in adult care,3staff on shift 10 residents, formerly worked in elderly. she would do 60 bed home with 5 staff, yes there would be cleaners cooks etc. but ratios just don’t feel right when you consider the fees.

Ответ для Máirtín Ó Loċlainn

That sounds dangerou. Miles higher ratio at my mum's home.

Ответ для Radiohead319 💙

From her experience it’s not unusual. Note she works nights and there are always less staff.

Ответ для Radiohead319 💙

And as an aside the charity she works at made a memo that the numbers don’t work, that they are spending too much on agency, not enough income, etc but can’t get staff?

Ответ для Oppo

I compare it to the price of a full board hotel. But so much more is provided than a hotel.

Ответ для Radiohead319 💙

But x30

Ответ для Winter02

You might as well do a reverse mortgage then. Blow the cash and let the government pick up the tab for looking after you when you can't do it yourself.

Ответ для Winter02

So why would you invest in a house

Ответ для Oppo

To live in

Ответ для Oppo

A house isn’t an investment. That’s what many have found it to be but that is not it’s primary purpose. There are times when there has been negative equity and people lose money.

Ответ для Winter02

I suppose in response you could ask why should the state pay for someone who rents and maybe chose not to buy or save? Honing this down to binary choices when the complexities are many won’t work. That’s why the ruling parties have dodged this question.

Ответ для Winter02

So, by that logic, why bother scrimping and saving to buy and maintain a house all your life when you can just float along merrily and let the council taxpayer pay for everything. Unless, of course, you're stinking rich, like most right-wing MPs, and can afford it anyway.

Ответ для Winter02

I invite you to try and get this entitlement. Councils are so strapped they avoid paying for residential care. My mum (advancing dementia) plainly wasn’t safe living alone. Offered us an extra visit by the carers she was already hounding out of the flat. The system is designed to wait for disaster

Badenoch isn't interested in social care, only in power. She demands a taste of it so she can lay a trap for Labour, only she's stupid enough to reveal it first.

"You know that thing the public have to pay thousands and thousands for? Well we'll help bring that into national scheme. But only if no one pays for it, in any way at all." More incredible Tory economics there.

It appears there is a big pot of abstract spending at the end of rainbow which could easily be reduced to fund anything and everything, and is quite different from actual spending, which helps real people and is painful and difficult to cut.

Surprising, because in today’s The Times, Trevor Phillips says Kemi inspires hope for better times. Which is nice.

Kemi on the ball again, when it comes to losing votes

Any that thinks adult social care can be fixed without raising taxes is mad, stupid or both. We can borrow to build the care homes ideally not through PFI or some new name for it. But we have to raise taxes to staff and run them.

The cake part is the idea that there is a fixed size of cake that needs to be shared around. This is the neoliberal myth. Government creates money anew for all its expenditure. Money is not scarce, resources are.

Tories support business above people. PPS scandal proves it. Tories were against the NHS at the beginning, private doctors losing money. If you didn’t have money for a doctor, tough!

The idea that taxes must always be raised to pay for new expenditure is just as silly as saying it must never be. State spending/GDP is the biggest it's ever been outside war/pandemic. Saying it's big enough and we can do this through reallocation isn't cakeism.

Ответ для charlessurface

Even Dilnot in 2011 said social care reform can’t be funded from reallocation of existing welfare expenditure. The commission estimated then that it would require an additional 0.25% of GDP. It also pointed out that the number of over-85s is “set to double by 2031”.

Ответ для Chris Rivers

Social care is currently funded by a lottery system. If you need expensive care it will take almost of your money. If you don't you spend nothing. Making into a Government insurance (everyone who needs it gets it, everyone pays, no profiteering) will be more than nothing and less than all each.

Ответ для chrismwheeler

That's no more a lottery system than anything else you need to pay for.

Ответ для charlessurface

Well, there is a reason we have house insurance and car insurance. However, you are more likely to have high care costs than your house burn down.

Ответ для chrismwheeler

& one can lose your house in both scenarios

Ответ для Mat Greener 🇺🇦

Yes, they are similar in financial magnitude

Ответ для Chris Rivers

This is future spending though. Badenoch wouldn't like it, but I'd overhaul the triple lock, which could save up to 60bn in the next decade.

bsky.app/profile/did:...

Andrew Rait

It's high time we got away from this "Tax is bad" narrative. We all want public services that work, stands to reason they need to be funded adequately, ergo we all need to pay a bit more especially those with broader shoulders & clever offshoring accountants. Highly disingenuous from Badenough

How many people with short attention spans, will have read beyond the initial Badenoch headline of "working cross-party"? Disappointing how the wilfully lazy media still breathlessly publish their "breaking news" & avoid the harder parts

Not ‘telling’ but ‘asking’. BBC needs to learn the difference. Badenoch is not in a position to tell the Government what to do no matter how much the BBC would like it to be so.

Some still believe in the Laffer curve....rather like the unfettered global free market, it has an existence outside reality.

It’s all they have to offer while they carry on into the future of insignificance.

Ответ для James Steel

Mysteriously, Bad Enoch is polling well right now.

Ответ для greenegg

I will never understand that, she’s as useful as a chocolate teapot.

Ответ для James Steel

So is Farridge...

Ignore her. She doesn’t even understand climate collapse.

Inevitable. By all accounts she has never been into cross party working.

Ответ для Paul

By all accounts she has never been into working, full stop. Friends in the civil service tell me she famously spent most of her time as SoS for Business and Trade on her phone and/or twitter.

It is easy to raise the money. Expand the economy further by permitting in more immigrants to work. Means test the state pension and raise the state pension age further. I'm sure Kemi would like all these sensible Ideas. None of them raise taxes.

I'm 65 and in reasonable health. I expect to be culled by excessive heat before I get anywhere near my typical life expectancy. Others will be far more vulnerable. Perhaps this possibility is influencing her 'thinking'?

They’re more committed to selfish greed than to care for the population. Same old tories

Maybe move around in the budget. Remove salaries from MPs should cover a little, Royal family could pitch in the rest? 😉

Ответ для SweGringo

Why remove salaries from MPs? why should they alone work for free? silly comment.

We appear to be running three social care systems, one for children, one for adults, one for older people. The old person one appears to be a care home nursing home protection society. Why exactly haven’t the concepts of person centred and whole system been taken seriously?

Ответ для Clive Durdle

Where are the life charts we all generally follow with the day to day course corrections and emergency actions when storms hit? Meteorology is very good at this, why not life meteorology and life climate?

Ответ для Clive Durdle

Hint, children become adults become old

S

Signalling virtue without enacting it has become the totality of politics in our doom-scrolling, desperate world. “My words fly up, my thoughts remain below: Words without thoughts never to heaven go.”

Typical Tory idea of reform involves destroying it completely thus removing the cost of the service. We need to treat our elderly better and that means spending money that doesn't go to the pockets of private investors

Spot on. Question is, will the Burnham govt be brave enough to call this out? Her ridiculous views on giving up on any net-zero targets are surely ripe for attack given heatwaves/droughts/wildfires. Conscious Labour wants to be seen spinning positive vibes but she can’t be given a free ride.

Ah, but you can pay for this from savings from the benefits budget, surely….

So she is saying she would pay for any new care plans purely by spending cuts elsewhere. Sounds a lot like Austerity II.

Let's not have the economics of funding social care get in the way of a political headline! As usual, much fanfare without any substance. Social care isn't a luxury; at present, those who can, cross subsidise those who cant. The status quo is unsustainable!

What about the people who haven’t been able to save up over the course of their working lives because wages have been too low and rents too high.

At some point we're going to hear that The Left are to blame for old people being more infirm than they used to be.

Exactly what I thought. Kemi thinks taking money from the poor and the young is the way to ensure she doesn't lose the votes from older wealthier voters who are the core tory vote.