Обсуждение

3 прямых ответов · 27 сообщений во всей ветке

Let me try and steer this discussion in a more productive direction. Because a lot of you all On Here are interested in PR becoming the 51st or 52nd State (for good reasons!), so let's talk about some big issues that will have to be addressed in that process.

Humble Novice

Is Darializa Avila Chevalier even aware that the majority of Puerto Ricans aren't interested in independence for a variety of reasons?

Anti-Sabotage Operations Group

27 июл., 04:49

Puerto Ricans already voted for full statehood repeatedly, and the “independence” thing was literally the brainchild of Nazis who got support for their cause from Germany during WW2

Peldrigal

28 июл., 23:23

My personal opinion is that none of that makes sense in political discourse because the electorate at large cannot distinguish such smaller points, and that is why you should not hold referendums on foreign policy. The Italian constitution explicitly forbids it.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:41

The first is this commonly cited statistic that comes from a recent poll by PR's largest newspaper. Two things are true: 1) This is a dishonest way of framing support for "independence." Look at Quebec to see how messy things can get when you use "sovereignty" and "independence" interchangeably.

Dennis Lytton

27 июл., 10:48

Framing "free association" and "independence" as sub-categories of "sovereignty" is wrong and disingenuous.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:42

2) There *has* been a genuine shift towards non-statehood options in recent years. The long tail of Hurricane Maria's devastation is not to be underestimated for how it's pushed Puerto Ricans, especially young islanders, in new directions. See here:

‘We are limited by the US in every aspect’: the young people behind Puerto Rico’s independence movementPopular sentiment has been growing since 2017, when the US failed in providing disaster relief after Hurricane Mariawww.theguardian.com

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:44

There are a lot of folks on here who are saying that the issue is essentially decided, that there's a pro-statehood supermajority, and that's that. That's... not exactly true. The issue remains in flux. But a lot hinges on the option *bundled* with independence. What's free association?

Effian Psychicker

27 июл., 04:52

Yeah, none of these referenda have been binding or plausibly binding and that's immediately relevant to how they should be interpreted at any level beyond "fully cutting ties is probably the least popular option".

Bring Back The Twin Star Rocket

27 июл., 04:56

The idea of a supermajority is kinda baffling, I've always thought at best there was a simple majority for statehood

Vman29397

27 июл., 06:34

Nah

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:45

The answer to *that* question will have a profound impact on any binding referendum vote, assuming it's an option (this is one of the things Avila Chevalier could vote on, and why her views matter so much).

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:50

For some in PR, "free association" means the status quo. In English we call PR a "commonwealth," in Spanish, that's translated as "Estado Libre Asociado." But others want to push PR towards being part of the US's Compact of Free Association--like Palau and Micronesia.

Compact of Free Association - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org

Dennis Lytton

27 июл., 10:55

At *best* COFA is a protectorate status for tiny micro-states too isolated for tourism or big industry. For which we have residual post WWII moral obligations. In reality their affairs, of all but the most local issues, are dictated by Washington. COFA, IMHO, is not a scalable or just arrangement.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:53

These agreements, however, are country by country. Major outstanding issues would have to be defined. Does PR use the US dollar? Does birthright US citizenship still apply? What about PR's debt? Will the US military maintain access to the island?

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:53

Such complexities cloud measures of support for "sovereignty," because their answers will change Puerto Rican islanders' views on the issue. And rest assured, if the US *does* get serious about a binding referendum, this will all become more urgent by far. If you care, you should be ready.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:55

Finally, there's the question of the Jones Act. Section 27 of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920. If you're Alaskan or Hawaiian, you're also probably familiar with the fuckery it's caused. For Puerto Rico, the stakes are even higher.

Merchant Marine Act of 1920 - Wikipediaen.wikipedia.org

Adam “TurboLib” Sessler 🇺🇦

27 июл., 04:57

Would the “negotiation” on these matters be with the governor of PR or would they need to use sympathetic reps in congress (or their non-voting ones)?

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 05:01

Right now, Congress would functionally be negotiating with itself on any changes to the Jones Act. The governor of PR can advocate, of course, but it's not up to her in any sense. At least not formally. If things ever got serious, of course I'm sure there'd be influence campaigns on both sides.

David (he, him)

27 июл., 15:26

Yes, because deregulation always works so well 🙄 The "invisible hand of the free market" and all that. If you wish to repeal the Jones Act, just be honest enough to say that Union workers make too much money and their kids shouldn't have health insurance.

Dennis Lytton

28 июл., 22:56

We need to invest in American shipbuilding and jobs for American flaged ships. That is the answer to shipping costs for AK, HI, and PR.

Alex

28 июл., 21:26

its always that thing

John Brown’s Body

28 июл., 23:36

Union workers make too much money and their children shouldn’t have healthcare… Now that I’ve repeated your stupid trope, let’s get on with it and stop letting anti-social unions prevent economic benefit for the whole population.

Dennis Lytton

27 июл., 10:57

The Jones Act sucks so hard because we've allowed the US merchant marine and US shipbuilding to atrophy

David (he, him)

27 июл., 20:51

Tell me what you know about the merchant marine

hahlen

27 июл., 08:16

The Jones Act should be repealed, but at the very least the non-contiguous states need to be exempted from it.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:58

Notably, as AK and HI make clear, PR becoming a state will not fix this law, which requires all shipping from the US mainland to be conducted by US-built, owned, and crewed ships. Think of what that does to grocery prices and you see the problem.

MegaForte84

27 июл., 05:17

I really wish the states that were originally helped by that would get involved. I live in the greater Boston area and back then it encouraged shipbuilding at the port here, but now we aren't doing that and it limits commercial shipping access from the port to every other on the coast and to PR.

Katherine Alejandra Cross

27 июл., 04:59

Independence would make it go away immediately--would COFA do it too? Maybe? But also with statehood, PR would gain valuable representation in Congress and could tip the balance. Who knows? But if you're advocating for statehood you need to keep this in mind.