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𝐀𝐛𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐚 🐟

The entire concept of a "rules lawyer" seems insane to me because I think it's partially the responsibility of everyone at the table to know the rules, and we can share that mental load. This idea only exists because of the paternalistic role of "the DM" controlling 100% of the rules normally.

2163
tctc

to me the iconic idea of the rules lawyer player is still the one who drags down the pace of play for the entire table because they're more busy trying to wrangle advantage out of the GM through semantics than playing the game but also not surprised to hear that the term has gotten flanderized

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3 прямых ответов · 12 сообщений

Ultimate Hyper Games

I think the negative terminology is not necessarily that they are trying to get advantage, but rather an adherence to the rules over the desires of other players. So, it might be the case that the GM and another player are on-board with a ruling that breaks the rules, the rule-lawyer may speak up.

Tuxedo Catfish

i mean the problem is right there in the framing, though. if you're playing a tactics game then deriving advantage from the rules IS playing the game. if this leads the game to break down, the rules suck.

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
Tuxedo Catfish

there's such a thing as bad-faith misinterpretation but you don't need a separate word for that; that's just "cheating" the only reason to get upset that someone understands the rules "correctly" (e.g. with a reasonable interpretation, ambiguity always exists) is a dispute over authority

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
𝐀𝐛𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐚 🐟

It's why I think the play culture part is important. Antagonistic DMs have been a thing for a long time historically, and it's weird that we moved past that but still insist the DM is the ultimate arbiter of all rules and systems. Someone's going to challenge that, often antagonistically!

Ответ для 𝐀𝐛𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐚 🐟
tctc

oh yeah, it's probably pretty self explanatory that the sorta, meme, of the GM that is too self important and precious about their game is as old as the "rules lawyer". It's not really either-or, and it kind of reflects how it used to be very common to stay in pretty toxic nerd friends groups

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
tctc

nnn I don't entirely disagree, but like, often part of the problem was a social one, so I'm not sure trying to pin it entirely on rules quality or rigor feels honest to me. A lot of those small local play groups back in the day were too desperate for players to remove bad faith players

Ответ для tctc
Tuxedo Catfish

yeah there are definitely various kinds of antisocial behaviors that go on at the table, my point is more that "rules lawyer" itself collapses the distinction. it wasn't really flanderized so much as it conflated playing to win with cheating in the first place

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
Tuxedo Catfish

some of this is a historical thing because in the 90s and early 2000s this attitude was SO much more prevalent in nerd circles and especially tabletop, there were far fewer TTRPGs that were both games of skill and well-designed, Warhammer nerds would shun you for bringing good lists, etc.

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
tctc

the "tryhards" phenomenon in competitive games is probably one of the most tedious things out there for sure. I wouldn't fully one-to-one it with "rules lawyers" though, because it'd also come up from fellow players who prefered pace or vermisillitude over precise rules application or winning

Ответ для tctc
tctc

but yeah, if it's just the GM being sore about it but all the players are having a good time doing it, then I agree the adjustment probably needs to come from the GM, whether it's expectations or ruleset or a different paradigm for running games

Ответ для Tuxedo Catfish
Matias

I'm playing a tactics game, not litigating attorney simulator. I want to think about positioning, resource management, action economy and the like. Not bad faith arguments about how a semicolon alters the meaning of a sentence.

𝐀𝐛𝐬𝐞𝐧𝐭𝐢𝐚 🐟

Yeah, my main point is I think that behavior gets exacerbated by a game with really flimsy rules and a play culture where thr DM is meant to control those rules and doesn't like having their control argued over.